📝 Full Narrative Summary
The meeting, held on May 5, 2026, at 15:48:31, began with team members confirming audio functionality and introducing themselves, establishing roles and contributions to the FreeCAD website project. The primary focus of the discussion centered on the strategic direction of the new website, with a consensus emerging to prioritize content development and design improvements over additional prototyping. The team evaluated communication tools, ultimately deciding to use existing platforms such as Discord or Telegram for real-time coordination, while keeping an eye on potential future migration to Matrix. A strong preference for asynchronous collaboration was affirmed, with GitHub designated as the central hub for formal contributions and a shared Nextcloud instance established for document sharing and version control.
The conversation then turned to the structural and technical foundations of the new website, particularly the navigation and layout for documentation pages such as the developer handbook. Concerns were raised about integrating complex documentation systems like Doxygen into a static site generator, prompting the team to consider linking to external wikis or documentation platforms if full integration proved unfeasible. Despite the technical challenges, the group reaffirmed its commitment to content and design work as the primary focus, with the understanding that a functional, user-friendly website should take precedence over iterative prototyping. The team also discussed content management strategies, emphasizing the need for a lightweight, scalable CMS solution that supports Markdown and structured content.
A significant portion of the meeting was dedicated to establishing a contribution guide as a cornerstone for sustainable collaboration. Recognizing the risk of dependency on a single maintainer and the potential for chaos without clear processes, the team agreed to create a concise, process-oriented guide early in the project lifecycle. This guide would detail how to add pages, structure content using Markdown, and maintain consistency across the site. While some members advocated for immediate content creation to accelerate progress, others emphasized that structured onboarding was essential to prevent duplication and ensure long-term maintainability. The debate highlighted a shared commitment to balancing speed with sustainability, ultimately favoring a well-documented foundation over hasty deployment.
With the contribution guide as a key deliverable, the team mapped out a phased approach to website development. The first step was to draft the guide, which would then serve as a reference for coordinating content creation and maintaining coherence. Communication workflows were formalized: Telegram was selected as the primary channel for coordination and real-time discussion, while GitHub remained the authoritative platform for code and content contributions. Max was assigned to create the Telegram group and collect contact details, ensuring all contributors were connected. The team also agreed to schedule a follow-up meeting for the following month to review progress and refine the roadmap.
In closing, the team reflected on the broader vision for the FreeCAD website, with Jordan emphasizing the importance of cultivating a distinct identity and long-term purpose beyond solving immediate technical challenges. The meeting concluded on a constructive note, with participants expressing appreciation for the collaborative spirit and the value of thoughtful debate in shaping the project’s future. The collective commitment to transparency, shared ownership, and iterative improvement was evident throughout, setting a strong foundation for the next phase of development.
The conversation then turned to the structural and technical foundations of the new website, particularly the navigation and layout for documentation pages such as the developer handbook. Concerns were raised about integrating complex documentation systems like Doxygen into a static site generator, prompting the team to consider linking to external wikis or documentation platforms if full integration proved unfeasible. Despite the technical challenges, the group reaffirmed its commitment to content and design work as the primary focus, with the understanding that a functional, user-friendly website should take precedence over iterative prototyping. The team also discussed content management strategies, emphasizing the need for a lightweight, scalable CMS solution that supports Markdown and structured content.
A significant portion of the meeting was dedicated to establishing a contribution guide as a cornerstone for sustainable collaboration. Recognizing the risk of dependency on a single maintainer and the potential for chaos without clear processes, the team agreed to create a concise, process-oriented guide early in the project lifecycle. This guide would detail how to add pages, structure content using Markdown, and maintain consistency across the site. While some members advocated for immediate content creation to accelerate progress, others emphasized that structured onboarding was essential to prevent duplication and ensure long-term maintainability. The debate highlighted a shared commitment to balancing speed with sustainability, ultimately favoring a well-documented foundation over hasty deployment.
With the contribution guide as a key deliverable, the team mapped out a phased approach to website development. The first step was to draft the guide, which would then serve as a reference for coordinating content creation and maintaining coherence. Communication workflows were formalized: Telegram was selected as the primary channel for coordination and real-time discussion, while GitHub remained the authoritative platform for code and content contributions. Max was assigned to create the Telegram group and collect contact details, ensuring all contributors were connected. The team also agreed to schedule a follow-up meeting for the following month to review progress and refine the roadmap.
In closing, the team reflected on the broader vision for the FreeCAD website, with Jordan emphasizing the importance of cultivating a distinct identity and long-term purpose beyond solving immediate technical challenges. The meeting concluded on a constructive note, with participants expressing appreciation for the collaborative spirit and the value of thoughtful debate in shaping the project’s future. The collective commitment to transparency, shared ownership, and iterative improvement was evident throughout, setting a strong foundation for the next phase of development.
⏰ Time-Stamped Transcript Index
- 15:48 – 15:55 Marcus Pollio opened the meeting, introducing the purpose: to welcome new members and align on communication preferences and project direction for the FreeCAD website. He noted this is the first meeting of the year for the website project.
- 15:55 – 16:15 Each team member introduced themselves, highlighting their experience with FreeCAD and contributions: Hyarion (developer and maintainer), Jordan (lecturer and contributor to the developer handbook), Giuseppe (longtime user, bug reporter, and wiki contributor), Max (critical of the current website and eager to release the new design), and Marcus (initiator of the project and long-time FreeCAD user).
- 16:15 – 16:35 The team discussed communication preferences. Max and Nzndns advocated for real-time chat using existing platforms like Discord or Telegram. Giuseppe and Jordan expressed reservations about Discord but acknowledged its practicality. The group agreed to avoid IRC and Teamspeak, and considered Nextcloud’s chat functionality, though it was not yet activated.
- 16:35 – 16:45 A consensus emerged to use existing platforms (Discord or Telegram) for real-time communication, with GitHub as the primary tool for code and documentation. The team acknowledged the need for a lightweight, reliable chat solution and deferred final decision until Nextcloud’s chat features are confirmed.
- 31:00 – 32:00 Marcus proposed using GitHub for issue tracking and chat tools like Telegram or Discord for real-time discussion, with Telegram preferred due to GDPR compliance and existing use in CAD communities. The team agreed to use GitHub for formal decisions and asynchronous collaboration, with chat tools as supplementary.
- 32:00 – 35:00 Marcus reported on the migration of the website content to the official FreeCAD GitHub organization, with the download and documentation sections completed. He outlined plans to migrate the community donation, features, and homepage sections in the coming weeks. The CMS and theme configuration are being refactored and will be operational by next month.
- 35:00 – 39:00 Jordan inquired about layout flexibility for contributor-facing pages like the developer handbook. Marcus confirmed that while core structural elements (header, footer, content blocks) are fixed by the static site generator, most visual elements (colors, borders, layout tweaks) can be adjusted via the CMS. Major structural changes require discussion and would be time-consuming.
- 39:00 – 47:00 The team debated the use of a collapsible sidebar or "burger menu" for navigation, particularly for long documentation pages. Jordan and Giuseppe advocated for a table-of-contents sidebar similar to MediaWiki or Arch Linux, arguing it improves navigation. Marcus confirmed this is technically feasible and could be implemented via the current framework.
- 00:55:09 – 00:55:55 Jordan emphasized the need for a contribution guide to ensure consistency and reduce micromanagement, comparing it to the FreeCAD Developer Handbook. He argued that a clear workflow would allow contributions to scale without constant oversight.
- 00:57:09 – 00:58:05 Jordan expanded on the "boss factor" concept, stressing that without documented processes, the project risks collapse if key contributors are unavailable. He advocated for a guide to enable independent contributions.
- 00:59:27 – 01:00:18 Jordan and others agreed that a contribution guide for the website could be created in under a week. Marcus confirmed the existence of a draft process document, and the team agreed to use it as a foundation.
- 01:02:00 – 01:02:55 The team concluded that creating the contribution guide should be the first action item. Max and Giuseppe supported this, noting that defining workflows first enables independence and reduces bottlenecks.
- 01:05:26 – 01:05:37 Giuseppe (Yosyp) emphasizes that the website is not live yet and that the first priority is to write clear guidelines on how to contribute, including how to submit PRs. Marcus agrees, and the team affirms the need for a process-focused guide before content is widely added.
- 01:06:00 – 01:06:17 Jordan (Senft-Research) proposes that the contribution guide itself serves as a "sanity test" — if the guide is usable and clear, it validates the structure. The team agrees that the guide should be populated early to test its usability and refine it iteratively.
- 01:11:31 – 01:11:59 Giuseppe (Yosyp) suggests creating a Telegram group for coordination, and Marcus agrees to set it up. The team confirms that email or other contact methods can be used for initial outreach, and Marcus commits to sharing his email in notes.
- 01:15:30 – 01:15:56 Jordan (Senft-Research) proposes using a GitHub repo for future meeting agendas, modeled after FreeCAD’s standard practice. Marcus confirms this is feasible and suggests using a dedicated repo for the website project. The team agrees to adopt this model for future meetings.
- 01:16:07 – 01:16:20 Marcus inquires about access to the calendar for scheduling. Max clarifies he has no editing rights, and Chris is the only one with access. Marcus suggests adding the next meeting agenda directly to the calendar.
- 01:17:10 – 01:17:45 Jordan (Senft-Research) proposes a follow-up "chinwag" (informal chat) in one week to coordinate roles before the next formal meeting. He warns against multiple people independently submitting PRs to the same section (e.g., the guidelines page), which could lead to duplication. The team agrees to use the chat to assign tasks first.
- 01:20:30 – 01:20:58 Max will create a Telegram group and collect contact details from Marcus and others to facilitate team coordination. Marcus and Max will coordinate to exchange contact information for setup.
- 01:22:30 – 01:22:42 Jordan shared a reflective insight: the website refactor should not be seen merely as a solution to a problem, but as an opportunity to build a unique, self-identifying digital presence. This vision should guide the development of the contribution guide and future design.
- 01:25:00 – 01:25:26 Marcus and Jordan discussed the need for broader involvement in the contribution guide process, acknowledging Marcus’s prior leadership. Jordan emphasized that future meetings may involve healthy debate, but the team’s maturity will ensure productive outcomes.
📋 Structured Key Points
📌 Executive Summary
The meeting, held on May 5, 2026, at 15:48:31, began with team members confirming audio functionality and introducing themselves, establishing roles and contributions to the FreeCAD website project. The primary focus of the discussion centered on the strategic direction of the new website, with a consensus emerging to prioritize content development and design improvements over additional prototyping. The team evaluated communication tools, ultimately deciding to use existing platforms such as Discord or Telegram for real-time coordination, while keeping an eye on potential future migration to Matrix.
💬 Topics Discussed
- FreeCAD website project: Focus on content, design, and onboarding after prototyping phase.
- Communication tools: Evaluation of Discord, Telegram, Matrix, and Nextcloud chat for team coordination.
- Developer handbook: Jordan’s initiative to refactor the handbook to reduce the "curse of knowledge" and improve onboarding.
- Website structure and navigation: Discussion on layout flexibility, sidebar menus, and table-of-contents implementation for documentation.
- CMS and content management: Configuration of the new CMS for theme and style customization, with some settings exposed only via YAML files.
- Documentation integration: Evaluation of whether Doxygen or other external documentation systems can be integrated into the new site or should be linked externally.
- Contribution guide for website
- Boss factor and project sustainability
- Workflow standardization for content contributions
- Contribution guide as a foundational document
- Coordination via Telegram and GitHub
- Avoiding duplication in PRs
- Use of GitHub for meeting agendas and documentation
- Website Identity and Vision
- Team Coordination via Telegram
- Contribution Guide Development and Inclusivity
✅ Decisions & Outcomes
- The website project will shift from prototyping to content and design refinement, with a goal to release a sleek, functional version soon.
- The team agreed to use existing chat platforms (Discord or Telegram) for real-time communication, pending confirmation of Nextcloud’s chat availability.
- GitHub will remain the primary platform for code and documentation collaboration.
- Marcus → migrate remaining website sections (community donation, features, homepage) to official FreeCAD GitHub repository → within 2 weeks (by 2026-05-19).
- Team agreed to use Telegram for real-time communication, with GitHub as the primary platform for issue tracking and decision records.
- The team decided to proceed with implementing a collapsible sidebar navigation (e.g., burger menu or table of contents) for long documentation pages, based on the Arch Linux and MediaWiki models.
- The team decided to prioritize creating a contribution guide for the new FreeCAD website as the first action item (00:55:09 – 00:58:05).
- The guide should define how to add pages, use Markdown, and structure content, with the goal of enabling consistent, independent contributions (00:59:27 – 01:00:18).
- The draft process document shared by Marcus was accepted as a starting point (01:00:50 – 01:01:37).
- The team decided to create a contribution guide before populating the website with content (01:05:26 – 01:05:37).
- A Telegram group will be created for coordination, with Marcus responsible for setting it up (01:11:31 – 01:11:59).
- A GitHub repo will be used for future meeting agendas, modeled on FreeCAD’s standard process (01:15:30 – 01:15:56).
- A follow-up informal chat is planned for one week after the meeting to assign roles and prevent PR duplication (01:17:10 – 01:17:45).
- Max will create a Telegram group and collect contact details from team members to enable real-time coordination (01:20:30 – 01:20:58).
- The team agreed to treat the new website as more than a fix for current issues — it should develop its own identity and purpose (01:22:30 – 01:22:42).
📋 Action Items & Owners
- Jordan → Refactor developer handbook to improve accessibility for new contributors → Ongoing, no deadline specified.
- Marcus → Confirm chat functionality on Nextcloud with Chris or Kirk → By 12-05-2026 (next week).
- Max → Share new website design mockups with the team → By 12-05-2026 (next week).
- Giuseppe → Investigate Matrix integration options and report on feasibility → By 12-05-2026 (next week).
- Marcus → complete migration of community donation, features, and homepage sections to official FreeCAD GitHub repository → 2026-05-19
- Marcus → implement sidebar navigation (table of contents) for documentation pages → 2026-06-02
- Team → evaluate Doxygen documentation integration or link to external site → 2026-06-09
- Marcus → finalize and publish the contribution guide draft → before 2026-05-19
- Jordan → draft the contribution guide content based on the existing process document → by 2026-05-19
- Giuseppe → review and refine the contribution guide draft → by 2026-05-19
- Max → initiate regular team syncs to discuss progress on the guide and website development → starting 2026-05-12
- Marcus → Set up a Telegram group for the website team → within one week
- Marcus → Share his email in notes for contact → immediately
- Marcus → Add the next meeting agenda to the calendar → by end of week
- Jordan (Senft-Research) → Propose GitHub repo for meeting agendas → within one week
- Team → Use Telegram chat to assign roles before next PRs are submitted → within one week
- Max → Create a Telegram group and collect contact details from Marcus and others → Immediate (within the day)
- Marcus → Continue driving involvement in the contribution guide process → Ongoing, with next steps in the upcoming meeting
❓ Open Questions & Follow-Ups
- Is the Nextcloud chat feature activated? (Pending confirmation from Chris or Kirk by 12-05-2026)
- What is the current status of the forum migration to Discourse? (Unclear, needs follow-up)
- Can the current static site generator support a dynamic, collapsible sidebar navigation without breaking existing structure?
- Is linking to external documentation (e.g., Doxygen) a viable long-term solution, or should a custom integration be pursued?
- How can the contribution guide be made accessible and actionable for new contributors without requiring deep technical knowledge of Hugo?
- What level of detail is needed in the guide to prevent confusion while still ensuring consistency?
- Who will be responsible for maintaining the contribution guide after its initial draft? (Unresolved)
- How will the team ensure that the contribution guide remains lightweight and process-focused while still being comprehensive enough to support broad participation?
💡 Notable Quotes
- 15:58 Jordan (senft-research): "I went to the developer handbook, and as an educator, it made me cry."
- 16:22 Max: "I hate the current website. It's awful. It looks like shit for me. And we need to release it as soon as possible, in my opinion."
- 16:30 Nzndns: "It would be great if we could use some type of real-time chat... and not try to use like a third for FreeCAD."
- 39:00 Jordan (senft-research): "It's one of those where that was like, I don't know if it communicated well in our correspondence over the GitHub issues, but that was the primary reason that I was skeptical of putting the changes directly on the website. Because essentially, I don't want to keep poking you every 10 minutes and be like, Marcus, Marcus, can we try this?"
- 01:00:03 Jordan (Senft-Research) Referenced: "I think for a website, though, I would be shocked if that took more than a week. Because it is just laying down the law on how to make additions to the site."
- 01:07:36 – 01:08:06 Giuseppe (Yosyp) on Hugo: "I don't have much faith in Hugo. It's like asking to build a website with a game engine. You could do that, but is that really the right tool?"
- 01:22:30 Jordan (Senft-Research): "If we keep seeing this website as it is to solve a problem it will never get an identity of its own."
📝 Assessments & Homeworks
- Jordan → Complete a draft of the refactored developer handbook by 12-05-2026 (next week).
- Marcus → implement sidebar navigation for documentation pages → 2026-06-02
- Team → assess feasibility of Doxygen integration → 2026-06-09
- Marcus to complete the contribution guide draft by 2026-05-19, to be reviewed by Giuseppe and Jordan.
- The contribution guide must be drafted and reviewed by the end of the next week to serve as a coordination tool before the next formal meeting.
- The contribution guide must be developed with input from multiple contributors to avoid over-reliance on a single maintainer. This will be assessed in the next meeting.
📅 Upcoming Events & Deadlines
- FreeCAD Day 2025 (mentioned as a prior milestone where prototypes were presented)
- Next meeting: Scheduled for next week, 12-05-2026.
- Exam season at Jordan’s institution → ongoing until end of May 2026 (2026-05-31)
- FreeCAD 1.2 release: target date is before 2026-05-19 (implied from Marcus’s comment about needing the site ready by then).
- Next meeting scheduled for one month from 2026-05-05 (05-06-2026)
- Follow-up informal chat planned for one week after the meeting (12-05-2026)
- The next team meeting is scheduled for next month (05-06-2026).
🎉 Special Occasions
None mentioned
💬 Chat Highlights
No chat to summarize
Transcript available
[00:11:19.193 00:11:19.993] Hyarion: Anyone here? [00:11:22.102 00:11:22.962] Jordan (senft-research): Are you able to hear me? [00:11:23.303 00:11:24.103] Hyarion: Yeah, cool. [00:11:25.232 00:11:26.252] Jordan (senft-research): Sweet, I'm on my way home. [00:11:25.863 00:11:27.323] Hyarion: Just need to check if it works. [00:11:27.432 00:11:29.852] Jordan (senft-research): Yeah, I'm on my way home, so I'm not going to be on the mic for too long. [00:11:37.273 00:11:44.673] Hyarion: I'm usually not early for meetings. So it's much easier when other people speak. Then you know it works. [00:11:42.477 00:11:53.377] Jordan (senft-research): Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, trust me, the last thing you want is me speaking. No one wants that. Okay, just give us two. [00:11:52.397 00:11:53.257] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Hello there. [00:11:54.193 00:11:54.993] Hyarion: Hi. [00:11:57.857 00:11:59.417] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Do you hear me alright? [00:11:59.903 00:12:00.703] Hyarion: Yes. [00:12:03.067 00:12:08.747] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Cool. I've been having problems with people, but I think it was their problems, not mine. [00:12:09.983 00:12:16.623] Hyarion: You've been having problems with people? Yeah. I always have problems with people. [00:12:14.337 00:12:15.137] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah. [00:12:19.163 00:12:23.743] Hyarion: Sorry. I'm just kidding with you. [00:12:23.752 00:12:26.412] Jordan (senft-research): I've been having problems with people all my life. [00:12:27.367 00:12:33.607] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, if all the people have problems with all people, then who's at fault? [00:12:34.103 00:12:35.243] Hyarion: The other guy? [00:12:37.087 00:12:39.207] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah, it's always the other guy. Always. [00:12:37.523 00:12:40.543] Hyarion: Yeah. If I ever meet that other guy. [00:12:42.907 00:12:43.707] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah. [00:12:47.313 00:12:53.483] Hyarion: So did he manage to... Ah crap, I just painted on the wrong thing. [00:12:56.387 00:12:57.727] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I'm sorry. What? [00:13:08.351 00:13:12.951] Hyarion: I'm painting in the kitchen. I accidentally painted the wrong thing. [00:13:11.517 00:13:12.317] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Oh. [00:13:15.901 00:13:26.571] Hyarion: So sorry for that. Did you manage to compile FreeCAD now? Or do you still have issues with it? [00:13:26.617 00:13:28.557] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Oh, yeah. I've actually... [00:13:38.881 00:13:50.471] Hyarion: Yeah. Awesome. [00:13:51.937 00:14:43.882] Jordan (senft-research): That's good. That's pretty good. I will be quite unsociable for the first 10 minutes of the way. I was just saying I'm on my way home, so I won't be talking. Thanks. [00:14:48.607 00:15:03.687] Hyarion: That's a first. I'm just joking with him. He's really good at talking. Yeah, I know. [00:15:03.631 00:15:11.831] Jordan (senft-research): i work as a lecturer so is everybody is everybody at this meeting other than the person who said [00:15:13.557 00:15:29.757] Hyarion: Yeah, seems like it. Marcus. Yeah, Marcus is here. Yes, now I can hear you. [00:15:29.419 00:15:32.059] marcuspollio: yeah can you hear me okay [00:15:29.797 00:15:30.597] Giuseppe (Yosyp): We can. [00:15:33.849 00:15:48.179] marcuspollio: so sorry got an issue in my side um so hi everyone i don't know if we're still waiting for someone else we'll see okay [00:15:47.871 00:16:02.451] Jordan (senft-research): I'm not sure, I did actually miss the big invite, I did ask them to get it for me. As you can probably tell from the background, I've currently on the bus home, so I won't be very social for the first 10 minutes. [00:16:05.939 00:17:49.439] marcuspollio: so i'll propose we start um with the introductions so the idea is so it's the first meeting for this uh this year for this website project so maybe as very new people joining it's cool to just get to know each other a bit more and then we can go directly to what's done for this website project and what's the next steps okay so i'll quickly introduce myself so um i've been using forget for a long time now almost yeah more than 10 years and so i started uh well i started i'm suggested we can do some stuff for the website meaning that back in 2024 it was a bit idle so I proposed to get some people to do something about it and so I started doing some prototypes and then submitted what has been going on 2025 at FreeCAD Day and then this year again. And so the idea is now a bit this prototyping thing is a bit done. And so we can really focus on the content and make it sleek and make it nice and onboard more people. That's about it. Next, who wants to? [00:17:48.027 00:18:26.247] Hyarion: Yeah, I think I have my mic on. I have lost whether I enable or disable it, so I'll just speak. Yeah. Benjamin Yarian. I've been doing, like, developing for FreeCAD off and on for a few years. I'm one of the maintainers. I usually do stuff where it annoys me the most. So sometimes it's the old website, sometimes it's other stuff. So, yeah, that's me. [00:18:34.111 00:18:45.091] Jordan (senft-research): i'll try my best to introduce myself while there's a law in the bus my name is jordan i'm the thing with the noise ben right now so i keep talking to him um like uh but now um [00:18:52.697 00:19:06.457] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Hold on, Jordan. You're lagging very much. If you take, I don't know, four minutes, I can go before you so you have time to get back home. [00:19:08.084 00:19:08.924] Jordan (senft-research): That would be nice. [00:19:09.627 00:20:50.527] Giuseppe (Yosyp): All right. I'm Giuseppe. I've been using FreeCAD since 2021, first from the RealThunder branch, so I'm very familiar with bugs and bug reporting. And I switched back and forth between FreeCAD and Fusion, so I have a certain idea on what, in my opinion, should work and what should be prioritizing. And my contribution to this community has been almost solely, actually practically solely, in bug reporting. I've also... contributed to the wiki so um i think i know the difficulties uh about editing the the wiki and that is something that hopefully will be improved with the new um proposal i'm really hoping it will be a high quality result because uh in my opinion as I've always highlighted the documentation needs a lot of work. That's mostly it. I'm not good with presentations. Jordan or Max, if you enabled your microphone, you can go. [00:20:57.339 00:21:00.019] Max: Sorry, I just blocked out of my computer. What was the question? [00:20:57.347 00:21:01.627] Giuseppe (Yosyp): We're doing presentation still, so you're next, I guess. [00:21:06.689 00:21:07.649] Max: Yeah. Hi, I'm Max. [00:21:09.057 00:21:10.017] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I don't know. [00:21:10.987 00:21:11.867] Jordan (senft-research): Beautiful. Beautiful. [00:21:11.567 00:21:12.927] Giuseppe (Yosyp): That was good, I guess. [00:21:11.609 00:21:13.829] Max: Do you need any more information? [00:21:14.217 00:21:15.017] Jordan (senft-research): Bye, Max. [00:21:17.907 00:21:18.707] Giuseppe (Yosyp): uh [00:21:19.996 00:21:23.036] Benjamin Nauck: I love it. It's the most German presentation ever. [00:21:28.389 00:21:34.529] Max: Yeah, I don't know. I missed your introduction. I'm not sure what you need to know about myself or me. [00:21:36.535 00:21:37.915] Jordan (senft-research): three digits on the back of your bank card. [00:21:40.404 00:21:45.274] marcuspollio: Yeah, maybe just about this website project, if you [00:21:40.749 00:21:41.549] Max: Sorry again. [00:21:45.274 00:21:46.754] marcuspollio: have special interest. [00:21:48.089 00:22:22.759] Max: Yeah, I hate the current website. It's awful. It looks like shit for me. And we need to release it as soon as possible, in my opinion. I love the new design. In my opinion, we should fill it with the existing content, release it, and then optimize it on the go. Because everything is literally better than the current site. I think we have a blog section on the current site, which mirrors the blog website, which also looks awful. And I think a new unified look would really help FreeCAD. [00:22:21.907 00:22:24.147] Giuseppe (Yosyp): it's less now keep [00:22:26.268 00:23:45.448] Jordan (senft-research): Right, how's my background noise sounding now? Yeah, so, okay, so my name's Jordan, I'm an alcoholic. I joke, I joke. No, so, name's Jordan, program leader of Aerospace over in the UK. Like, not been using FreeCAD as much, it's very much... Going off the main street. I've not been using free CAD too much. I've been on and off of it over the last couple of years, and I finally decided to start contributing where I could. And basically, my whole reason for being in this meeting is I went to the developer handbook, and as an educator, it made me cry. So, yeah, long story short, I started to work on doing a massive refactor of the dev handbook, trying to get newer people involved with it specifically. So, the issue of the curse of knowledge. Marcus roped me into this. He's actually got me at gunpoint right now. Like, no, I joke, I joke. But no, like, I figured that because the Dev Handbook and the website are going to be hand -in -hand, you know, no need for a pun there. But, you know, add it as you will. Yeah, that's why I decided to come in. And also, [00:23:44.147 00:23:45.947] Giuseppe (Yosyp): the joke coming all [00:23:45.488 00:23:48.248] Jordan (senft-research): I'm known for not rambling either. I don't know if you can tell. [00:23:54.367 00:23:58.587] Giuseppe (Yosyp): right i think uh we're all set for our presentations i [00:23:57.440 00:23:58.680] Jordan (senft-research): Right, so that's me. [00:24:02.469 00:24:30.809] marcuspollio: yeah so maybe because there's a few people uh personally i haven't met before if you have some uh collaboration style you prefer if you prefer meetings or chat or uh fan communication uh would be great to know so we can sort it again okay [00:24:30.639 00:24:35.949] Jordan (senft-research): All of the above. For me personally, all of the above. [00:24:35.829 00:24:51.969] marcuspollio: um well Maybe we don't have to set right now how we communicate, but it could be nice to be on the same page and so we know that how it's going. [00:24:56.326 00:25:01.046] Jordan (senft-research): Yeah, I agree. I agree with that like but like so me personally I don't really [00:24:58.207 00:25:02.987] Giuseppe (Yosyp): i do because um well we all know github doesn't have a chat and it's [00:25:01.046 00:25:04.346] Jordan (senft-research): mind like so I don't know if anyone else has a stronger preference than me [00:25:02.987 00:25:35.947] Giuseppe (Yosyp): not even private messages that i know of at least um and i also know we're migrating to nextcloud and we can ask for an account there and nextcloud has a talk page or i it's it's i don't know how much they have implemented it but they also have chats documents and an office environment so we could ask for an account there uh [00:25:35.909 00:26:15.929] marcuspollio: Yeah, actually, I think we should ask either Chris or Kirk, if it's available, what's implemented in the Nextcloud instance. I don't know what's exactly there. I know there's a... tentative migration of the forum to the discourse based one but it's it's odd i think it's for six months there hasn't been much activity on it and i'm not sure but i think this course has a live chat thing um so but it wouldn't be tomorrow anyway yeah [00:26:19.655 00:26:24.395] Max: I've just checked the Nextcloud instance and there is no chat. At least it's not activated. [00:26:21.357 00:26:22.197] Giuseppe (Yosyp): we're [00:26:29.277 00:26:33.817] Jordan (senft-research): What's that? We're moving to a new framework and not using the features that actually make the framework useful? No, [00:26:30.257 00:26:34.297] Giuseppe (Yosyp): in the process of migrating maybe you're doing it at steps okay [00:26:33.837 00:26:35.937] Jordan (senft-research): no. That doesn't sound like us. [00:26:37.217 00:26:42.497] Giuseppe (Yosyp): okay nice um benjamin has yeah [00:26:38.327 00:26:40.387] Jordan (senft-research): I know, I know. I'm being facetious. [00:26:47.599 00:26:57.119] Nzndns: I really, really hate this stupid meeting app. It doesn't work on the phone. So if you could use [00:26:56.261 00:27:01.041] Jordan (senft-research): I thought you were going to say you hate this stupid [00:26:57.119 00:26:59.179] Nzndns: something else, it would be better. [00:27:01.041 00:27:04.061] Jordan (senft-research): meeting then, and I thought this meeting was going to go a completely different way. [00:27:03.979 00:27:08.779] Nzndns: No, sorry. I restarted it the fourth time. Well, [00:27:06.071 00:27:07.691] Jordan (senft-research): I have very much been the same. [00:27:09.419 00:27:32.819] Nzndns: it would be great if we... I think it would be great if we could use some type of real -time chat. And it would be nice if we could use an existing one and not try to use like a third for FreeCAD. So if it would be possible to either use Discord or use Telegram, it would be [00:27:31.647 00:27:33.927] Giuseppe (Yosyp): i'm just uh i'm just typing [00:27:32.819 00:27:33.619] Nzndns: great. [00:27:34.711 00:27:38.491] Jordan (senft-research): I swear the next framework will be the final solution to all of our problems. [00:27:34.817 00:27:39.737] Giuseppe (Yosyp): whatever comes to mind we have the forum but so i think we all prefer a [00:27:38.579 00:27:39.379] Nzndns: Yeah. [00:27:39.737 00:27:48.477] Giuseppe (Yosyp): chat right yeah we're we're [00:27:49.542 00:27:53.622] Jordan (senft-research): like your chat's quite nice it's quite informal but at the same time you can have a proper conversation [00:27:51.767 00:27:55.567] Giuseppe (Yosyp): so few people that a chat would work in our case [00:27:53.622 00:27:58.162] Jordan (senft-research): there's never that like oh let me see on this for four hours before i reply [00:27:55.567 00:28:13.417] Giuseppe (Yosyp): um and so far we have irc which in my opinion we should rule out is that uh not use irc is not is not suitable for our needs [00:28:10.859 00:28:15.819] Nzndns: Rollout? Do you mean like not use or start to use? [00:28:13.417 00:28:17.247] Giuseppe (Yosyp): uh discord is suitable as [00:28:17.619 00:28:18.419] Nzndns: Yeah, okay. [00:28:18.007 00:28:27.427] Giuseppe (Yosyp): as much as telegram and there's also an element server we can use yeah yes [00:28:27.839 00:28:29.879] marcuspollio: the matrix one so [00:28:32.609 00:28:46.269] Nzndns: Yeah, and that is phased out as well in favor for a new one, but it hasn't been configured properly yet. Obelisk is working on a nice bridge between Discord and [00:28:42.439 00:28:44.729] Jordan (senft-research): You know, ironically, [00:28:46.269 00:28:51.109] Nzndns: Matrix. So in the long run, I think that would be good. But if [00:28:50.779 00:28:55.699] Jordan (senft-research): before we go into the main topics of today, I do want to point out that this conversation about what chat apps [00:28:51.109 00:28:54.029] Nzndns: we could use an existing one for the moment, that would be great. [00:28:51.159 00:28:53.259] marcuspollio: you mean the yeah [00:28:55.699 00:29:00.519] Jordan (senft-research): to use is like a microcosm of the issues that are leading us to migrate the website in the first [00:28:59.687 00:29:04.537] Giuseppe (Yosyp): yeah it's all the principles and uh all the stuff that has [00:29:00.519 00:29:01.319] Jordan (senft-research): place. [00:29:03.779 00:29:04.579] marcuspollio: yeah yeah sure [00:29:04.537 00:29:09.227] Giuseppe (Yosyp): accumulated over time that uh it's not good so other [00:29:06.469 00:29:07.889] Nzndns: Yeah, I [00:29:09.227 00:29:15.427] Giuseppe (Yosyp): options between beyond discord and telegram that i don't remember yeah [00:29:25.503 00:29:30.403] Jordan (senft-research): Not in -house, like, I mean, I've got a TeamSpeak server, a host, [00:29:27.547 00:29:32.527] Giuseppe (Yosyp): teamspeak wouldn't work for text chat and we we have big blue button [00:29:30.523 00:29:32.123] Jordan (senft-research): but apart from that, it can't be from anything else. [00:29:32.527 00:29:42.007] Giuseppe (Yosyp): as much as some people have problems. We will use this as a voice chat, I guess. I [00:29:46.649 00:29:47.449] Nzndns: think [00:29:48.156 00:29:48.956] Jordan (senft-research): One [00:29:48.809 00:29:53.749] Nzndns: all of us are using Discord except for Marcus at the moment, [00:29:50.716 00:29:52.436] Jordan (senft-research): of us one of us [00:29:51.929 00:29:55.289] marcuspollio: yeah i i removed my account yeah [00:29:52.887 00:29:55.187] Giuseppe (Yosyp): honestly don't like Discord as much. [00:29:53.789 00:29:59.559] Nzndns: right? Yeah. [00:30:02.927 00:30:04.687] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah, of course. [00:30:03.869 00:30:04.669] Nzndns: Okay, [00:30:04.161 00:30:09.121] Jordan (senft-research): It's why I set up the teams, to be honest, because they are getting a bit dodgy [00:30:05.747 00:30:08.127] Giuseppe (Yosyp): With all the... I'm [00:30:09.121 00:30:09.981] Jordan (senft-research): at this point at the moment. [00:30:14.269 00:30:24.829] Nzndns: I'm just going to suggest, can we use either Discord or can we use Telegram or could we use WhatsApp? I think those, or Signal for that matter. [00:30:24.928 00:30:34.708] Jordan (senft-research): Well, I'm not giving any EU reprobates my number, so... No, joke aside, I think Telegram would probably be best. Like, I mean, it works with the main CAD meetings, [00:30:32.377 00:30:36.937] Giuseppe (Yosyp): also not okay with WhatsApp. I have recently requested a [00:30:34.928 00:30:35.728] Jordan (senft-research): so why not? [00:30:36.937 00:30:49.097] Giuseppe (Yosyp): GDPR on Meta, so I'm not doing that again. I think they haven't replied or I think you haven't. Anyway, that's not a matter. So [00:30:48.089 00:30:48.889] Jordan (senft-research): I approve. [00:30:49.097 00:30:52.127] Giuseppe (Yosyp): is everybody okay? You say? [00:30:53.249 00:31:02.659] marcuspollio: maybe we don't have to to decide today uh but at least we know the the options and um [00:31:04.819 00:31:07.099] Nzndns: So what's your options, Marcus? [00:31:05.289 00:31:06.909] marcuspollio: yeah [00:31:08.549 00:31:13.309] Nzndns: What would work for you? You removed your Discord account, so I guess Discord is an option [00:31:10.709 00:31:15.489] marcuspollio: well i i don't mind using chat [00:31:13.309 00:31:14.109] Nzndns: for you. [00:31:15.489 00:31:26.459] marcuspollio: uh structure but i'm not very available so um yeah i don't know if would be a real advantage anyway [00:31:31.579 00:31:33.699] Nzndns: Okay, so why are we discussing this then? [00:31:33.089 00:31:36.449] marcuspollio: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I'm not the only one, eh? [00:31:34.471 00:31:35.271] Jordan (senft-research): Why not? [00:31:34.607 00:31:43.987] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, you don't have to be always available. The beauty of a chat is just you can scroll down the past 10 messages and read them. [00:31:42.858 00:31:43.658] Jordan (senft-research): He's got you there. [00:31:44.147 00:31:48.987] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Of course, if you're absent for three days and there's 100 messages, that will be a problem. [00:31:48.169 00:31:48.969] marcuspollio: Yeah, sure. [00:31:49.107 00:32:06.947] Giuseppe (Yosyp): But can Telegram... create communities like whatsapp you can make groups or send problems or whatever or it's just one single chat because we well we can we could start on telegram and then maybe move that's just a [00:32:06.139 00:32:09.099] Nzndns: It's once in chat, if I remember correctly. [00:32:06.947 00:32:13.527] Giuseppe (Yosyp): chat it wouldn't hold much important information right it's not a critical choice yes [00:32:16.669 00:32:40.139] marcuspollio: No, no, no. I think ideally, we stick all issues or design aspects on GitHub, or if we move to some other GitHub work. Yeah, exactly. And then if we have questions that need to be [00:32:36.961 00:32:38.781] Jordan (senft-research): Yeah, like solid decisions. [00:32:40.139 00:32:46.879] marcuspollio: answered, quite a lot. fast or anywhere we can use a chat based on thing so [00:32:43.227 00:32:45.627] Giuseppe (Yosyp): that's the principle exactly hold [00:32:46.939 00:32:51.249] marcuspollio: yeah okay yeah [00:32:51.526 00:32:56.456] Jordan (senft-research): yeah okay so second order of business uh adding [00:32:53.597 00:32:58.117] Giuseppe (Yosyp): on that doesn't sound very very wrong that doesn't sound wrong [00:32:56.456 00:32:58.056] Jordan (senft-research): a chat app to the new website [00:33:01.599 00:33:02.399] Nzndns: No. [00:33:05.649 00:33:10.559] marcuspollio: to to the forum that could be an option there yeah so i [00:33:06.858 00:33:09.298] Jordan (senft-research): It [00:33:06.969 00:33:10.129] Nzndns: Okay, so what do we have on the agenda? [00:33:10.559 00:33:15.159] marcuspollio: propose we jump to the next step so the current website project [00:33:11.598 00:33:12.398] Jordan (senft-research): was a joke. [00:33:15.159 00:35:18.509] marcuspollio: status so um um i've been migrating the work that has been done on my private yet public well it used to be public then private then public again repo uh to an official freecat organization repository um it is not this migration not complete yet but almost i mean um maybe in a weeks or two should be okay i've migrated today the Download and documentation sections. Maybe I'll do this week or the next one, the community donation sections, and then the features and the homepage. If you want to help right now, it would be cool, especially for the features and homepage because currently... I'll just link that. previews website so you can see it directly. So the homepage is not bad but it's not great either and the features are in existing. So I would say it needs a bit of design. Then I did the content management system because I've done some refactoring and changes in the theme and the structure. So I need to update the CMS again. And hopefully, next month, it will be operational. And so we can use it to edit content. And also, theme, style, [00:35:18.365 00:35:19.165] Jordan (Senft-Research): Isso aí. [00:35:18.809 00:36:05.569] marcuspollio: and other basic config. So not everything will be exposed to the CMS. I would say, advanced configuration that will only be available... Well, you can only edit them directly on the YAML files on the config. It won't be exposed to the CMS, but style tweaks and so on, they will be available. For instance, if you want to change the accent color or the border radius or whatever, you can do... you will be able to do that directly via the CMS. What next? [00:36:06.522 00:36:07.322] Jordan (Senft-Research): Sweet. [00:36:06.569 00:36:09.549] marcuspollio: Demo. Okay. Yeah. [00:36:08.492 00:36:54.992] Jordan (Senft-Research): On the question of the styling of the site, say, for example, the layout of, say, for no reason whatsoever, the developer handbook. No idea why I'm asking about that. How flexible is that going to be for the average bear contributor in terms of changing the layout of stuff like, say, for example, on the dev handbook page, it's quite... very rigid very blocky at the moment sort of you know literally like grid of you know blocks you then go into like is that something that's flexible for contributors to propose changes to or is there like a sort of vision in terms of like the structure but i'm happy with either answer is just to sort of so we're on the same page [00:36:54.849 00:37:40.889] marcuspollio: So I would say if you give you the second demo, give you a link to the current migrated website. So we basically there's the the site for every page is structured with a top header then the body that has a hero section on top and then some content and then there's the footer and this basically it's possible to change but i yeah would be [00:37:38.417 00:37:39.217] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yes. [00:37:40.889 00:37:51.229] marcuspollio: a fairly big change and you yeah that should be discussed yeah [00:37:54.542 00:38:09.362] Jordan (Senft-Research): Oh, no, no, completely agree. Completely agreed. Anything like that should be, which is sort of why we were sort of keeping the content change separate for now, because we don't want to like mess with the website. You know, we don't want to like, you know, tread on any toes until we've got something [00:38:05.759 00:38:06.559] marcuspollio: yeah [00:38:09.362 00:39:07.002] Jordan (Senft-Research): that, you know, makes sense. Like, say, for example, in the current sort of mock up, I don't have it active right now. I do apologize. It doesn't show everything on one big screen. It shows the general headers, and then there's a nice burger menu on the side with all the different subcategories. And it's more with the idea of, rather than basically shotgunning a new member with all of the topics in the developer handbook in one go, it's sort of like a... So, like, you know, here's, like, a good sort of section of things for the new people to look at. Here's something specifically for the maintainers. And then have the majority of the sort of sections all coming together, like, you know, in, like, a burger menu sort of in the way. Like, but once again, I'm not sold on that either. I want to be completely clear. I'm going to be infuriating for quite a lot of people, I feel, because I'm a very much second -guesser sort of guy where I'm happy to go, is this the best approach? [00:39:06.039 00:39:08.019] marcuspollio: yeah [00:39:08.342 00:39:33.802] Jordan (Senft-Research): But it's one of those where that was like, I don't know if it communicated well in our correspondence over the GitHub issues, but that was the primary reason that I was skeptical of putting the changes directly on the website. Because essentially, I don't want to keep poking you every 10 minutes and be like, Marcus, Marcus, can we try this? Because as you said, it would be quite a big change to do. I'd rather mess around [00:39:29.269 00:39:30.589] marcuspollio: yeah yeah [00:39:33.802 00:39:40.812] Jordan (Senft-Research): with it in another environment. And then once we've got something that's like, oh, this is quite nice, then we could have that big discussion as you [00:39:39.609 00:39:43.909] marcuspollio: you said you have a mock -up somewhere has it online [00:39:40.812 00:39:49.182] Jordan (Senft-Research): discussed a minute ago. Not active right now. Like, I've been [00:39:44.289 00:39:45.649] marcuspollio: or yeah [00:39:49.182 00:40:24.532] Jordan (Senft-Research): doing, funnily enough, been doing streams on Discord when I can. To give some context, because I know we don't really chat that much outside GitHub, we are currently in the middle of exam season at my institution. And yeah, free time is a luxury. Hence why when I came to this meeting today, I was on the way home from a late day. Like, you know, we were supposed to leave at, like, four. I got out at five. So it's going to be a few weeks until I get back on it proper. But, yes, very, very imminently, it was supposed to be this week, and I wanted to put that public just so people could look at it as it's being done. Like, quite similar to how you've got a website up at the moment. [00:40:24.849 00:41:25.729] marcuspollio: so to go back to your uh answer i would say there's two aspects it's bit that would be tricky to really change this this free partition between the top header content and the footer and the other is distinction between lists so that is like pages that gather many different pages and then single pages and that is really baked into the way the static site generator works and changing that would be really difficult but otherwise say what kind of boxes table content hero navigation and so on everything could potentially be changed tweaked and so on so that's not a big deal But often it needs someone to do the work. So yeah, that's more the issue. Does it answer your end? [00:41:28.038 00:41:37.928] Jordan (Senft-Research): That is the other thing. It does. It does. It does. I do have a follow -up question, but I can hold off for a little bit. Let other people have the floor or move on to the next topic for a bit. And I [00:41:33.617 00:41:38.837] Giuseppe (Yosyp): so you spoke about the pages that hold pages but um a [00:41:37.928 00:41:40.188] Jordan (Senft-Research): can bring it up if there's a more appropriate time. [00:41:40.047 00:41:48.767] Giuseppe (Yosyp): loss of your connection what no you hear me right right okay uh bbb printed me from anyway [00:41:48.669 00:41:49.469] marcuspollio: Yeah. [00:41:48.767 00:41:53.247] Giuseppe (Yosyp): um you talked about uh pages that hold pages but um [00:41:52.269 00:41:53.069] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, we can hear. [00:41:53.247 00:42:40.117] Giuseppe (Yosyp): well a dev handbook as much as a uh the api page two will not need Like, boxes. The boxes, I'll be clear, because I'm not very good at speaking, need to go away. Because what do we need the images for? Why do we need to take all this space for boxes? Maybe the burger menu that Jordan talked about, because I don't know what it is, was just like the nested kind of menu that all the wikis have. What is a... [00:42:48.118 00:42:52.878] Jordan (Senft-Research): I am currently in the process of sort of making it [00:42:51.097 00:42:54.237] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Okay, but what do you mean by burger menu? [00:42:52.878 00:42:56.678] Jordan (Senft-Research): live locally so I can take a few pickies and put it in the chat. [00:42:55.069 00:42:55.869] marcuspollio: But [00:43:03.380 00:43:15.780] Jordan (Senft-Research): Essentially, you know what? Actually, there is a very good option here because it was the original reason why we had a look at the framework we were looking at at the time. Just give me two seconds, chaps. [00:43:15.546 00:43:20.426] Nzndns: So a burger menu is just like a menu which is accessed from a [00:43:15.957 00:43:20.877] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Oh, yeah. Yeah, yes, we need that, of course. [00:43:20.426 00:43:25.186] Nzndns: button which looks kind of like a hamburger. It's three lines. So that's [00:43:21.097 00:43:23.577] Giuseppe (Yosyp): That's a must. The burger is a must. [00:43:25.186 00:43:25.986] Nzndns: horizontally. [00:43:29.519 00:43:39.039] marcuspollio: do you mean as a top navigation widget or inside a particular section like a table of content? [00:43:36.637 00:43:37.437] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah, [00:43:39.779 00:43:42.139] marcuspollio: I'm not sure I follow what you meant before. [00:43:45.905 00:43:49.365] Jordan (Senft-Research): Something akin to this, but not this. [00:43:48.757 00:43:53.597] Giuseppe (Yosyp): more exactly the table of content that extends [00:43:50.905 00:43:55.045] Jordan (Senft-Research): But with an option to minimize, like on the side via that burger menu. [00:43:53.597 00:44:35.207] Giuseppe (Yosyp): up to a level that can be chosen. And this systematic... No, that's not systematic. It's a tree approach. You start from a root and then you have the branches need to be implemented and all the wikis have it. Even MediaWiki itself, the wiki we host, has it, but it doesn't work. It's very badly programmed. For example, another point is the Arch Linux wiki. [00:44:35.949 00:44:48.529] marcuspollio: So if you go on this page. Are you using it on mobile or desktop? [00:44:45.847 00:44:49.237] Giuseppe (Yosyp): It's indifferent. uh there's [00:44:55.739 00:45:00.579] Jordan (Senft-Research): I'm able to see, and yes, something very akin to that. [00:44:56.759 00:44:57.599] marcuspollio: Okay, yeah. [00:45:02.079 00:45:04.059] Jordan (Senft-Research): Like, yeah. [00:45:02.209 00:45:10.359] marcuspollio: So on the left, there's the table of content. And you [00:45:06.239 00:45:09.519] Jordan (Senft-Research): So yeah, that link you just put, very akin to that sort of style. [00:45:10.359 00:45:15.109] marcuspollio: can either have like a sort of [00:45:12.749 00:45:16.269] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, very similar, very similar style. [00:45:15.109 00:45:24.189] marcuspollio: breadcrumbs navigation structure and then the content of the page or something else. Or you can, yeah, [00:45:23.577 00:45:28.317] Giuseppe (Yosyp): also the content of sorry i'm overlapping there's [00:45:26.289 00:45:28.779] marcuspollio: you can even add, sorry. [00:45:26.389 00:45:30.909] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, something very similar to that style, very similar to that style. [00:45:29.857 00:45:34.377] Giuseppe (Yosyp): also the content of the tape of the table contents of the page itself [00:45:31.219 00:45:32.019] marcuspollio: Yeah, [00:45:34.377 00:46:03.067] Giuseppe (Yosyp): i don't know the blender one i think yes if you select a page a single page you have the table of contents on of that page on the right column the same way as the no media wiki doesn't have this on arch linux And that is something that also I have highlighted as a critical point. It's really hard to navigate, in my opinion, without this table of contents. [00:46:08.409 00:46:10.369] marcuspollio: sure, sure. Yeah. [00:46:09.675 00:46:14.615] Max: But you guys are only talking about the handbook section on this new page with [00:46:14.587 00:46:15.387] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yes. [00:46:14.615 00:46:18.465] Max: this navigation style, right? Okay. [00:46:20.294 00:47:34.464] Jordan (Senft-Research): this is indeed correct this is indeed correct max um it's more it most might actually be a good place to mention the sort of not elephant in the room but sort of the point i wanted to make later with that question which is um the obviously not committing to it because i i don't want to commit to it because there's a lot of words already put into it but with the nature of the handbook if when we've done all the content and we see that the Maybe the structure that eventually gets done via said framework, like whatever we use at the moment with a sense call, ends up being paramount to the new structure of the information in terms of user friendliness. If the website is not capable of replicating it to a good standard, which once again, static web generators, they tend to have that disadvantage. It's not something that's bad about it. It's a perfectly valid system. if there were limitations like how open would we be to the idea of potentially having it as a link from the new website rather than being integrated into it like once again it's it's one of those [00:47:29.579 00:47:30.379] marcuspollio: Yeah. [00:47:34.464 00:47:44.284] Jordan (Senft-Research): where it's it's one of those elephant in the room topics and i want to make it clear because it's very hard over text to make this clear and i think i did a good job but i want to be clear i as i spoke at [00:47:43.126 00:47:44.146] Nzndns: So [00:47:44.284 00:47:48.484] Jordan (Senft-Research): the main meeting i'm not in love with either idea like i could take it or leave it [00:47:50.006 00:48:05.266] Nzndns: one such problem is Doxygen documentation. I don't think we can make it work in this Hugo system that easily, but we could try to [00:48:01.909 00:48:02.709] marcuspollio: Yeah. [00:48:05.266 00:48:08.366] Nzndns: style it. What's your plan for that, Marcus? [00:48:05.839 00:48:29.479] marcuspollio: So to answer Jordan's question, I think it's totally possible. And actually, if you look at the current top documentation, I just link to the current wiki. So it's totally possible to just link it. Is it good experience? That is another question. I would say that if we go this path [00:48:28.053 00:48:28.853] Jordan (Senft-Research): Thank you. [00:48:29.479 00:48:43.289] marcuspollio: that is having several framework, it's because really it's not possible to make them work together uh yeah um i would say [00:48:41.495 00:48:43.515] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, it's hard to match. I agree with that. [00:48:43.289 00:48:57.529] marcuspollio: that it's worth the try to at least integrate it and if it doesn't not work just do something else if it's really not possible yeah um [00:48:56.007 00:48:57.467] Jordan (Senft-Research): agreed and [00:48:57.677 00:48:59.397] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yes, we are. That's [00:48:59.127 00:49:04.047] Jordan (Senft-Research): i i yeah i i want it on the record as well because we are recording aren't we [00:49:00.639 00:49:01.859] marcuspollio: yeah [00:49:04.047 00:49:23.707] Jordan (Senft-Research): um yeah yeah yeah yeah because i just want it on the record that like i completely agree with that sentiment like um once again it's a bit hard to communicate over text with it i i think i've talked to like ben what a lot about this in pro as well where yeah it'd be nice if if it turned out that another framework is what would be the most appropriate cool [00:49:21.119 00:49:22.199] marcuspollio: yeah [00:49:23.707 00:49:29.657] Jordan (Senft-Research): we do it but I would want to put effort into seeing if we could integrate the website first, just [00:49:25.819 00:49:26.919] marcuspollio: yeah [00:49:29.657 00:49:34.497] Jordan (Senft-Research): as like once, once the content's done, because to be honest, in a perfect world, we would just have one framework. [00:49:31.049 00:49:32.109] marcuspollio: yeah [00:49:34.857 00:49:54.277] Jordan (Senft-Research): I am more than happy to do that, but it's like, yeah, I just wanted to pose the idea of if worst comes to worst, are we brave enough to go? You know what? We sort of need to move it to another framework and link it. So I'm glad that you're open to it, but I do want you just knowing and being secure that yeah, that I'm a hundred percent on board with trying to make it work. [00:49:51.593 00:49:56.413] Max: But is this now top priority for us to merge all the other sites [00:49:51.819 00:49:53.059] marcuspollio: if we can have a [00:49:56.413 00:50:05.893] Max: into one or could we just release like a static content site to replace the current site and then talk about adding all the other sites to this afterwards? [00:50:06.019 00:50:07.659] marcuspollio: Yeah, sure. To [00:50:06.530 00:50:27.290] Jordan (Senft-Research): Well, I think that was the original. Yeah. Cause I think that was the original confusion that we had was we thought that was the plan. And then obviously when we started messing around with that dev handbook, that sort of kicked the hornet's nest and it was like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait. Like, and then this came about. So yeah. Yeah. [00:50:27.909 00:52:08.069] marcuspollio: answer Benjamin's question about Duckcision, the next thing I'll do about this website improvements is really have an up -to -date and automatic documentation via Duckcision, via its own default templates. So it's not integrated into the website, it's just linked to it. And then I'll investigate whether we can use Sphinx or something else to also document the Python codebase. So there's some ways to use the Doxygen outputs into Sphinx. I haven't tried it yet, but maybe it's possible. And then ideally we would have like a common documentation of the whole source if it works but then there's still the question of the api because it's really a mess and that i think we would have to discuss also with uh marco i think and then coordinator to remember the name and that is another big topic so in any way It will take some time and it won't be done in one go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Does it answer your question, Benjamin? [00:52:13.902 00:52:33.652] Nzndns: Yeah. So, and the next question is, would it be possible to work on this web page in like iterations? So we could try to get something out quite soon, even if it's like bare minimal or like just a substitution of what we have right now. And then we could work on it [00:52:32.809 00:52:34.729] marcuspollio: What do you mean? Sorry, I don't get it. [00:52:33.942 00:52:42.482] Nzndns: like in the future. So this work has been ongoing for quite some time and [00:52:41.359 00:52:42.159] marcuspollio: Yeah. [00:52:42.482 00:53:04.282] Nzndns: I'm really sick also. of the old web page and i think what you've done now is great and i would like to start to use it if possible so like would it be possible to try to focus on a minimum valuable product and then we could improve on it later [00:53:04.949 00:53:23.059] marcuspollio: Yeah, sure. Sure. So do you mean using is make it this project, the live one, the official website product? Sorry, the official FreeCAD website? or do you mean use it yeah [00:53:25.466 00:53:30.426] Max: Yeah, obviously just filling it with more content or copying just the content from the current [00:53:27.029 00:53:28.069] marcuspollio: yeah [00:53:30.426 00:53:35.006] Max: site, then release it and then we can improve it iteratively. [00:53:31.519 00:54:23.709] marcuspollio: sure um we'll see how it goes but the idea is to have it before the release of 1 .2 so if we can make it work that would be cool so uh i think personally on my side i still need a few weeks to finish this migration uh so it really works also for the cms but you can uh if you want to contribute right now it's possible if you don't know how just ask me but if you want to do the homepage or do uh tweak some yeah do anything you are most welcome to do it and if you don't know really you have to start or just just ask yeah sure yeah [00:54:23.342 00:54:33.082] Max: So just create some PRs on the repo or maybe we can really set up some chat app and then talk back and forth [00:54:28.341 00:54:29.141] Jordan (Senft-Research): I [00:54:32.729 00:54:33.569] marcuspollio: but [00:54:33.082 00:54:36.022] Max: about some concepts or some designs. [00:54:36.781 00:55:06.511] Jordan (Senft-Research): mean, to be the boring man in the room, because someone has to do it, I would highly suggest there being a contribution .md or contributing .md slash guide before we start throwing stuff at the new site, because surely one of the things we really want to do is consistency. And without any contribution guidance to this new site, surely that's just going to end up being... I think the polite word for it would be chaotic. [00:55:09.029 00:55:18.129] Nzndns: So I don't think that's true. It just depends on who will be maintaining it, and if there's multiple [00:55:17.927 00:55:21.687] Giuseppe (Yosyp): exactly the point. We have very varying ideas. [00:55:18.129 00:55:22.909] Nzndns: people, how much they have the same ideas [00:55:22.387 00:55:26.867] Giuseppe (Yosyp): So having a single, sorry I interrupted you, but having a single source of [00:55:22.909 00:55:26.169] Nzndns: for the web page. So I think it is possible. [00:55:24.458 00:55:25.258] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [00:55:26.867 00:55:29.647] Giuseppe (Yosyp): indications would be best. [00:55:38.519 00:55:42.459] Nzndns: Yeah, but the problem with that is that we're delaying it another year. [00:55:39.369 00:55:40.169] marcuspollio: i [00:55:41.692 00:55:49.832] Jordan (Senft-Research): if it takes if it takes marcus a year to write a contributing .md then i mean at that point like [00:55:49.489 00:55:54.409] marcuspollio: mean it's not much but you can use the this guidelines to [00:55:50.939 00:55:55.079] Nzndns: I just want to get this out the door. That's all. [00:55:54.409 00:56:14.149] marcuspollio: start and I think because I'm not sure what kind of contribution content you really need. So if you have precise questions like, can I just do a page and then we do [00:56:11.240 00:56:12.440] Jordan (Senft-Research): Just shows the time user. [00:56:14.149 00:56:22.069] marcuspollio: a draft and then we get feedback? Or can I change pictures or whatever? Maybe it's easier to answer. [00:56:28.045 00:57:09.405] Jordan (Senft-Research): Well, I mean, if I could be so bold, and I'm saying this as a complete outsider who's only recently joined, I feel that approach might be the reason why it might have took a bit of time, is that in my head, every time I've been part of something that's this fluid, I guess is the right word when it comes to stuff like doc sort of projects, is... You need to have a guide of the process of, okay, how are we going to do a webpage? What is the process of adding a new page to the site? What is the new process of doing this? Because the moment you have a system that means anyone can just pop in and contribute to a consistent standard is when a project starts [00:57:09.259 00:57:10.059] marcuspollio: Yeah, [00:57:09.405 00:58:00.865] Jordan (Senft-Research): to snowball into something productive. Or at least that's my take on the matter. Like, because, yeah, I feel that maybe to borrow a phrase from Ben, like a boss factor becomes a bit of a thing to consider where what would, essentially, for those who are not familiar with the term, what happens if you're hit by a boss tomorrow? Would the project still survive? Like, and I'm not saying you as in you specifically, Marcus. I was using that as a collective you. That's what boss factor means. So it's more... would contributions still be able to brought in with people still be able to review them and like get to the point of nearly approving them without obviously yourself with the final say without your input and i think that's why i'm sort of a big fan of having a full sort of contribution e guide for the site because the moment it's done [00:57:59.957 00:58:02.657] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I think we need a maintainer, not a tutor. [00:58:00.865 00:58:05.765] Jordan (Senft-Research): it would probably mean work could get done very quickly and consistently [00:58:04.627 00:58:09.527] Giuseppe (Yosyp): uh we we need ways to independently know [00:58:05.765 00:58:08.265] Jordan (Senft-Research): if that makes sense that [00:58:09.527 00:58:35.107] Giuseppe (Yosyp): how to do stuff and what to do instead of actually asking you because the telegram chat is not a the should not be the first source of uh information or anything make yeah make everything an organic uh community not a hierarchy [00:58:35.310 00:58:36.730] Jordan (Senft-Research): And even on top of that... [00:58:35.877 00:58:38.137] Giuseppe (Yosyp): a business hierarchy well [00:58:43.809 00:58:44.609] marcuspollio: sure. [00:58:50.690 00:59:22.420] Jordan (Senft-Research): I almost doubled down on the joke then and said, I agree with the underlink. But no, yeah. The way I see it is that you want to be able to have someone who doesn't come to this meeting to be able to easily contribute to the website in a way that won't cause loads of headaches for you and having to basically micromanage them and go, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong. When a short guide of like, workflow of don't make a new page could solve that well [00:59:22.139 00:59:29.919] Nzndns: Okay, so do you have an example of such a guide that could work as like a template for ours? [00:59:27.100 00:59:40.140] Jordan (Senft-Research): there's this thing that i am aware of that is um a document on how to contribute to a software um you might have heard of it it's called the free cad developer handbook um [00:59:37.657 00:59:42.317] Giuseppe (Yosyp): he asked for something that works and is uh very much solid so [00:59:40.140 00:59:48.340] Jordan (Senft-Research): and i mean but no no [00:59:42.317 00:59:44.957] Giuseppe (Yosyp): that would not be but [00:59:48.340 00:59:52.320] Jordan (Senft-Research): i am i am with you i am with you i am with you [00:59:50.479 00:59:55.119] Nzndns: Yeah, so you've been working on it for quite some time as well. So [00:59:54.740 00:59:56.480] Jordan (Senft-Research): I'd like to think for a website, though. [00:59:55.119 00:59:59.999] Nzndns: such a document can take a long time. And I think [00:59:58.220 01:00:03.210] Jordan (Senft-Research): I think for a website, though, I would be [00:59:59.999 01:00:03.679] Nzndns: just try to get this to work would be really nice. [01:00:03.210 01:00:18.300] Jordan (Senft-Research): shocked if that took more than a week. Because it is just laying down the law on how to make additions to the site. I'd be very shocked if that took more than a week of actual work. [01:00:16.577 01:00:35.427] Giuseppe (Yosyp): let's not be clear we're not asking for how how hugo works for example how to do stuff in hugo that's beyond what we're asking we're asking how we we use hugo to make implementations of the website how to use not how you use the tool [01:00:32.310 01:00:33.110] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, great. [01:00:37.527 01:00:41.087] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I don't know if... Yeah, exactly. [01:00:41.649 01:00:44.119] marcuspollio: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [01:00:45.965 01:00:50.785] Jordan (Senft-Research): And more, what's the process of adding a page? For example, if I'm a new user, I want to add a new page. [01:00:46.729 01:00:51.569] marcuspollio: Exactly. So maybe I'll just complete. Can you see [01:00:50.885 01:00:51.685] Jordan (Senft-Research): How do I do that? [01:00:51.569 01:00:55.899] marcuspollio: the last link I provided on the chat? And [01:00:52.397 01:00:57.267] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Website dev web? Okay. I [01:00:55.899 01:01:27.589] marcuspollio: yeah. And so there's a few pages missing because I need to update them. But basically, I think we can just have this process there. Contributions and yeah, it's like an onboarding. explaining the structure, how files are managed, and how you can write normal Markdown and also custom ones, and so on. [01:01:27.234 01:01:36.514] Jordan (Senft-Research): Marcus, did you let us have that back and forth for the last five, ten minutes with this in your back pocket? This is exactly what we were [01:01:33.679 01:01:40.899] marcuspollio: Yeah. Yeah. Because it ain't fun otherwise, no? But [01:01:36.514 01:01:37.314] Jordan (Senft-Research): proposing. [01:01:38.577 01:01:41.197] Giuseppe (Yosyp): agree. [01:01:40.899 01:01:55.989] marcuspollio: no, I mean, there's a few things missing. It could be smoother and more... welcome in, but I think that's the basic idea you have. [01:02:00.621 01:02:05.441] Max: I think this should be fine enough for the start. I think we can also start [01:02:00.634 01:02:01.434] Jordan (Senft-Research): I think that's it. [01:02:05.441 01:02:13.671] Max: with us here at the meeting or anyone interested and just start working on the new site and maybe have some regular meetings [01:02:12.873 01:02:14.353] Jordan (Senft-Research): Well, yeah. [01:02:13.671 01:02:27.051] Max: and discuss there. I just looked at the current website repository. It's existing since 2015 and it has only 200 pull requests. There is not much contribution going on, like 20 PRs per year. [01:02:26.173 01:02:43.123] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. But this is it. Also, just to be that guy, call me crazy. I don't know if this is me. I don't know if this is post -work Jordan Bray or something. But in my head, surely the most logical place for us to start as this group is to [01:02:42.209 01:02:43.009] marcuspollio: Yeah. [01:02:43.123 01:02:47.643] Jordan (Senft-Research): populate the guide that Marcus has just linked. Surely [01:02:43.947 01:02:50.527] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yes. No, no, you're not. I was about to propose the same stuff. We should [01:02:47.643 01:02:51.723] Jordan (Senft-Research): if we did that as our first step, then the problem solves itself. [01:02:50.527 01:02:54.947] Giuseppe (Yosyp): work on how to work and define the [01:02:52.363 01:02:53.883] Jordan (Senft-Research): Am I going nuts here? [01:02:54.947 01:02:59.407] Giuseppe (Yosyp): guidelines first, then from the guidelines we gain independence. [01:03:09.189 01:03:14.009] Jordan (Senft-Research): Real quick, I don't know if you're on phone or not, Marcus, but Fusions had their [01:03:11.289 01:03:12.089] marcuspollio: Sega? [01:03:14.009 01:03:14.809] Jordan (Senft-Research): hand up for ages. [01:03:16.969 01:03:20.149] marcuspollio: Oh, sorry. Let's go. Yeah, [01:03:17.429 01:03:20.889] Jordan (Senft-Research): Wrecked Fusions had their hand up in the chat for quite a bit. [01:03:21.721 01:03:40.881] Reqrefusion: Yes. Sorry for late, but actually my say is this new website is very, very boring. This is not interesting. [01:03:40.210 01:03:45.150] Jordan (Senft-Research): Whoa, whoa, hold on. Maybe slightly nicer language. I'm just going to be [01:03:42.501 01:03:43.461] Reqrefusion: Actually, [01:03:45.150 01:03:45.950] Jordan (Senft-Research): that guy. [01:03:46.381 01:03:51.961] Reqrefusion: I think Marcus wants to be boring. I don't know. [01:03:53.847 01:04:01.687] Nzndns: So Rick Ryushin hasn't introduced himself. He's been working on the old website, so I just wanted to put that out there. [01:04:01.825 01:04:03.725] Jordan (Senft-Research): Oh, wow, wow, wow. [01:04:04.227 01:04:09.087] Nzndns: And then also, there's a lot [01:04:07.757 01:04:12.657] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Let me link his discussion first. Rek, if you can, well, [01:04:09.087 01:04:13.827] Nzndns: of placeholders currently, and I think it will look a lot better when we fill it with content. [01:04:10.519 01:04:11.319] marcuspollio: exactly. [01:04:12.757 01:04:17.397] Giuseppe (Yosyp): you already started the discussion on the repo itself, and I think you [01:04:15.691 01:04:16.891] Reqrefusion: Animation, of course. [01:04:17.397 01:04:28.007] Giuseppe (Yosyp): chose a more soft, softer words to say that. This one, exactly. [01:04:32.269 01:04:36.729] marcuspollio: Yeah, I think the stage this project is currently is [01:04:36.527 01:04:37.327] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Exactly. [01:04:36.729 01:04:44.999] marcuspollio: the content is far from final. The style is far from final. But [01:04:44.061 01:05:11.361] Reqrefusion: But content always should be a first. This is not a free cat. This is a website. This is face of the free cat. And face always should look like a beautiful. Not a hand. Not like a... Of course, a hand should be beautiful, but... Sorry. [01:05:07.217 01:05:12.407] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Don't worry, we're not judging. I mean, Jordan is, but I'm not. [01:05:22.729 01:05:26.369] marcuspollio: I mean, nothing stops you from changing stuff. [01:05:23.455 01:05:24.655] Jordan (Senft-Research): I haven't been paid to judge. [01:05:26.929 01:05:31.609] marcuspollio: it's out there you can submit whatever you want then we discuss it [01:05:28.687 01:05:33.667] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Remember, the website is not live yet. So first we do the guidelines [01:05:31.609 01:05:32.569] marcuspollio: yeah [01:05:33.667 01:05:37.827] Giuseppe (Yosyp): and we write how to change the website. And [01:05:35.550 01:05:36.350] Jordan (Senft-Research): Nah, hehe. [01:05:37.827 01:05:40.567] Giuseppe (Yosyp): you're free to PR. [01:05:46.986 01:06:04.006] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. And on top of that, by making that section, we can see, because the whole point of that section would be so people could go to it and see how to contribute to the website. You use it as a sort of sanity test as well of, does this look good now it's populated? [01:06:00.249 01:06:01.469] marcuspollio: exactly [01:06:04.706 01:06:14.546] Jordan (Senft-Research): And then through that process, we then get to a point where we go, oh, cool. Now we know. Now we know what works, what doesn't. We can change it right here, right now, before we make [01:06:14.169 01:06:16.949] marcuspollio: yeah so that's sort of oh [01:06:14.546 01:06:17.666] Jordan (Senft-Research): this live and people can use this guide to add other stuff to the website. [01:06:19.978 01:06:38.478] Reqrefusion: Actually, actually, I was sent a PR for animation, but you don't like that. And close. Are you remember that? In the Marcus repository, I sent the animation [01:06:36.029 01:06:40.909] marcuspollio: yeah yeah on the previous um repo yeah because [01:06:38.478 01:06:42.038] Reqrefusion: code. And yes, [01:06:40.909 01:06:45.849] marcuspollio: you you suggested to implement what's currently on the [01:06:41.009 01:06:42.329] Nzndns: Yeah, I remember it [01:06:45.849 01:06:54.019] marcuspollio: website and um yeah i'm not against it uh i'm don't know exactly what was the discussion among [01:06:52.258 01:06:53.058] Reqrefusion: I [01:06:54.529 01:06:57.589] marcuspollio: the the design group people so [01:07:01.208 01:07:05.808] Reqrefusion: said I don't understand the philosophy in this new website. [01:07:04.079 01:07:39.169] marcuspollio: basically the philosophy is we try to make the architecture work so we don't have five different structure frameworks that are pain to maintain and we try to have a single one where people come together to contribute that would be the idea the the philosophy and the vision and then what's the output what's the exact result is um based on what we do and it's not like a good imposed vision on what the output is yeah [01:07:36.707 01:08:06.597] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, I don't like this philosophy. I don't think the dev handbook, the API, maybe the wiki could stay on the same infrastructure. But the dev stuff, I'm... I don't agree with the philosophy itself. All in one, I just don't agree with having everything [01:08:06.391 01:08:11.371] Jordan (Senft-Research): Of what part? What part in particular? What was that at the end? I didn't quite hear which part [01:08:06.597 01:08:15.817] Giuseppe (Yosyp): on a single platform because they basically solve different problems. A static website can make [01:08:11.371 01:08:12.171] Jordan (Senft-Research): you disagree with. [01:08:15.817 01:08:45.037] Giuseppe (Yosyp): to work with the wiki infrastructure or the dev handbook infrastructure, but I don't have much faith in Hugo. it's like asking to build a website with a a game engine you could do that but is that hey don't don't don't don't don't do that i've [01:08:45.789 01:08:46.889] Jordan (Senft-Research): Don't give me a challenge now. [01:08:46.797 01:08:51.677] Giuseppe (Yosyp): i've asked uh some fairly embarrassing questions and proposed uh fairly embarrassing [01:08:48.689 01:08:50.229] Jordan (Senft-Research): I'm opening Godot as we speak. [01:08:51.677 01:09:10.297] Giuseppe (Yosyp): stuff not to say this is embarrassing okay but i have proposed it to to ask for a c sharp api using godot And doing a program. Yeah, exactly. The [01:09:10.640 01:09:13.000] Nzndns: Okay, we are going off topic here. [01:09:11.528 01:09:16.328] Jordan (Senft-Research): Whoa, whoa, whoa. I feel like we just got about four lanes the wrong [01:09:14.160 01:09:19.540] Nzndns: So I think that it's a [01:09:16.328 01:09:17.128] Jordan (Senft-Research): way there. [01:09:19.540 01:09:24.080] Nzndns: great base vision to be able to have as much as [01:09:23.169 01:09:26.649] marcuspollio: exactly and what does not work we do something else [01:09:24.080 01:09:32.490] Nzndns: possible in the same framework. And as Marcus said before, like, exactly. [01:09:34.144 01:09:39.064] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, and I agree with that. And I'm literally working on Dev Handbook in a different framework right now. [01:09:35.180 01:09:35.980] Nzndns: So [01:09:39.104 01:09:39.984] Jordan (Senft-Research): And even I agree with that. [01:09:40.168 01:09:45.148] Reqrefusion: Actually, we can migrate the DevHandbook in the wiki. Actually, all [01:09:41.809 01:09:43.789] marcuspollio: yeah [01:09:43.477 01:09:48.367] Giuseppe (Yosyp): wiki is borked. There's 2 ,800 pages that I [01:09:45.148 01:09:47.868] Reqrefusion: of the things can migrate. [01:09:47.745 01:09:50.885] Jordan (Senft-Research): No, I changed my mind. Right, okay. [01:09:48.367 01:09:58.087] Giuseppe (Yosyp): pulled with the API and filtered just in English. And I think 2 ,000 are wrong or outdated. Because [01:10:07.000 01:10:17.590] Nzndns: I think that one of the problems we had with the wiki was that nobody... or not any group try to maintain it and make [01:10:14.247 01:10:18.677] Giuseppe (Yosyp): that's hard as shit. Yes. I [01:10:17.590 01:10:46.690] Nzndns: it uniform. So there's a lot of different styles and text is written all over the place. So I think if we could have some maintainers of the web page, maybe not at the moment, maybe it's just Marcus at the moment or whatever, but if we could move towards a space where some personal people try to give it like a holistic view would be a good way to [01:10:43.119 01:10:48.029] marcuspollio: yeah the issue is with so much legacy and so much [01:10:46.250 01:10:47.050] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:10:46.690 01:10:48.610] Nzndns: keep everything in the unit. [01:10:48.029 01:10:52.909] marcuspollio: quantity it's hard to really focus on quality um [01:10:48.790 01:10:49.590] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:10:52.909 01:10:57.789] marcuspollio: so uh we have to somehow have a [01:10:57.551 01:10:58.351] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:10:57.789 01:11:21.029] marcuspollio: new sort of new base but also use what's existing so let's try to have a balance between already work done in the past by many many people and sort of make sure that for the future the base is sound and that's a tricky one yeah [01:11:19.067 01:11:34.467] Giuseppe (Yosyp): think we found a common point on the major stuff. we can start wrapping up with what I always said. So the first step is just to create a group chat on [01:11:31.659 01:11:34.169] marcuspollio: yeah um [01:11:34.467 01:11:46.047] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Telegram. Marcus, are you doing that? Oh, [01:11:50.399 01:11:54.519] marcuspollio: so i'm not using telegram but i can investigate how it works [01:11:53.607 01:11:59.247] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I thought we had decided on the chat framework, on the chat platform. [01:11:58.898 01:11:59.698] Reqrefusion: Or [01:12:01.589 01:12:06.509] marcuspollio: yeah it's okay it's okay i can uh i can look at yeah [01:12:03.467 01:12:18.737] Giuseppe (Yosyp): And the second step would be just to keep improving the... contributing material on the website itself and we could all start from there [01:12:17.649 01:12:18.689] marcuspollio: yeah [01:12:18.737 01:12:21.687] Giuseppe (Yosyp): that's it yes [01:12:22.079 01:12:58.059] marcuspollio: so i'll push uh maybe a few more pages placeholder pages special for translations and maybe illustrations or something and then we can also fill it up but yeah just use this developer handbook website section and go from there sounds good what [01:13:03.278 01:13:12.878] Nzndns: So, Marcus, do you still... So, how can I contact you at the moment? [01:13:10.459 01:13:11.939] marcuspollio: do you mean yeah [01:13:13.907 01:13:14.927] Giuseppe (Yosyp): well [01:13:15.678 01:13:28.378] Nzndns: I mean, like, if you're going to start a Telegram group, how can we connect? Do you have any contact information to me or to Max? [01:13:26.447 01:13:31.047] Giuseppe (Yosyp): you know telegram doesn't work with numbers so um [01:13:30.056 01:13:37.616] Jordan (Senft-Research): Look, right. He's asking for your number. I don't [01:13:36.197 01:13:40.997] Giuseppe (Yosyp): even a mail i don't know just something i'm [01:13:39.286 01:13:41.486] Jordan (Senft-Research): work with numbers either, which is bad because I'm electric. [01:13:39.619 01:13:43.549] marcuspollio: or email yeah yeah i [01:13:45.876 01:13:48.016] Jordan (Senft-Research): I mean, yeah, email works. [01:13:45.919 01:13:50.759] marcuspollio: can um but [01:13:49.546 01:13:54.206] Jordan (Senft-Research): I mean, we could just go full classic Linux mailing list style if we want. [01:13:50.688 01:13:53.308] Reqrefusion: sending a kangaroo, maybe. And [01:13:50.827 01:14:00.437] Giuseppe (Yosyp): okay with that i don't i've never used it just for the contact information just for that yes [01:13:56.336 01:14:02.566] Jordan (Senft-Research): I'm not. I'm not. Absolutely not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:14:06.539 01:14:10.839] marcuspollio: yeah i can put my email in the notes no worries so [01:14:07.986 01:14:26.526] Jordan (Senft-Research): Sweet. I would like to suggest that if we're going to have these meetings, not semi -regularly, but whenever, having a meeting agenda like the normal CAD meetings might be somewhat productive. I'm just going to say in the age -old words of my ancestors, don't fix what ain't broke. [01:14:26.319 01:14:28.299] marcuspollio: i i i don't [01:14:29.137 01:14:30.657] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, of course we need... [01:14:32.749 01:14:37.409] marcuspollio: know if you saw there was a notes but i think it wasn't [01:14:37.117 01:14:38.697] Giuseppe (Yosyp): No, there was [01:14:37.409 01:14:40.309] marcuspollio: linked in the calendar yeah [01:14:44.527 01:14:46.087] Giuseppe (Yosyp): no note. [01:14:44.569 01:14:45.589] marcuspollio: so [01:14:46.776 01:14:49.316] Jordan (Senft-Research): feel that may be a subtle flaw in the system. [01:14:47.769 01:14:53.769] marcuspollio: I'll put all the nodes here. Yeah, [01:14:51.256 01:15:09.786] Jordan (Senft-Research): The idea of a GitHub repo works quite well. Like I said, like how the FreeCAD works, like the normal meetings, a GitHub repo would not be a bad idea, I don't think. Specifically for the meeting, though. [01:15:11.219 01:15:33.069] marcuspollio: there's the main breakout software project nodes for the developer meeting on Saturday and Sunday. But I don't know exactly how the other... The FPE has their own agenda nodes on its own repo. Maybe we can do the same for [01:15:30.089 01:15:30.889] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, I know. [01:15:33.069 01:15:34.689] marcuspollio: the website. Just have a... [01:15:39.869 01:15:52.609] Jordan (Senft-Research): That was good. Marcus, did you just take my idea and just repackage it? No, no. In jokes aside, I completely agree with you. That [01:15:48.437 01:15:53.297] Giuseppe (Yosyp): It's okay, it's okay. We can use their way. I'm [01:15:52.609 01:15:56.209] Jordan (Senft-Research): is the way I would propose it. I don't know if anyone else disagrees. [01:15:56.229 01:16:07.359] marcuspollio: Max, do you have access to the calendar? I mean, can you edit? Only Chris and Yorick do, right? [01:16:07.813 01:16:14.763] Max: No, no, no, no. I have no idea. Chris, for sure. [01:16:12.809 01:16:17.719] marcuspollio: OK, yeah. So if we can put directly the notes for [01:16:14.085 01:16:15.265] Jordan (Senft-Research): Probably for the best. [01:16:15.508 01:16:17.568] Reqrefusion: probably could. But, [01:16:17.719 01:16:20.439] marcuspollio: the future meeting, or the agenda would be cool. [01:16:25.594 01:16:32.914] Jordan (Senft-Research): Even the, because that way we could do it like where people could do it like the normal meetings where if you want to propose an extra item, you can do it as a pull request. [01:16:30.509 01:16:45.849] marcuspollio: Cool. So for the next steps and future meetings, maybe we can schedule the next meeting in one more. or something is it good for you something [01:16:51.113 01:17:10.633] Jordan (Senft-Research): I think a month would be, especially for a project like this, it'd be good. But in the meantime, I feel like a mini meeting, maybe not even on air, maybe literally just a few of us having a chinwag or whatever, just to start what we said today, which is just starting to populate that website guide. Because [01:17:09.719 01:17:12.039] marcuspollio: to discuss yeah exactly [01:17:10.633 01:17:30.613] Jordan (Senft-Research): if we could get to the next meeting with a proof of concept, finally finished one, if we could have that done as a final concept, or even like an initial concept by the end of the month, like the next meeting, we could talk about it next meeting, do any of the polishing needs to be done, and then we can just hit the ground running with the website [01:17:26.979 01:17:31.519] marcuspollio: so there's a tangible base to discuss so yeah yeah [01:17:30.613 01:17:45.923] Jordan (Senft-Research): going forward for next month. Yeah, so my worry of having like the next meeting at all in a month is that maybe we should have a chin wagging like a week, like just like a very casual chit chat, like [01:17:41.557 01:17:42.357] Giuseppe (Yosyp): okay for a minute. [01:17:45.923 01:18:18.073] Jordan (Senft-Research): just, okay, who's going to do what? Because I feel like there is that top, yeah, there is that slight risk. if we all just go away and try now what if we all try and like add to the bloody website introduction and then suddenly got free prs where we're all trying to add stuff to the intro like you know what i'm saying like it's it's this is what i mean by a process because like i can very easily see for example i saw that the guidelines page is completely empty i could easily see some of us in here all going [01:18:16.557 01:18:17.357] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, [01:18:18.073 01:18:21.853] Jordan (Senft-Research): like independently i'll go and populate that [01:18:20.567 01:18:25.127] Giuseppe (Yosyp): we have the chat, yes. But we could also propose [01:18:22.093 01:18:25.853] Jordan (Senft-Research): and then suddenly we got like four prs doing the same thing yes [01:18:23.429 01:18:24.429] marcuspollio: yeah [01:18:24.648 01:18:26.988] Nzndns: Isn't that what we can have a chat for? [01:18:25.127 01:18:29.307] Giuseppe (Yosyp): three or four different PRs on how to make a draft PR. [01:18:27.293 01:18:41.503] Jordan (Senft-Research): oh i'm not having a pr drop i'm not having a pr off like i'm not [01:18:40.747 01:18:41.987] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Oh, all right. [01:18:41.503 01:18:44.843] Jordan (Senft-Research): doing this isn't the hunger games like only [01:18:44.117 01:18:48.737] Giuseppe (Yosyp): yeah we just we need then to uh coordinate because uh [01:18:45.573 01:18:47.853] Jordan (Senft-Research): one pr survives [01:18:48.737 01:19:01.577] Giuseppe (Yosyp): we're five different people that no we're six and it's yeah so we have we could start from the chat or do you want to fix the next mini meeting that's [01:19:09.847 01:19:38.707] Jordan (Senft-Research): I mean, I'm not going to lie. I think fix the chat first and then we can try the chat initially. If we feel like it's not going anywhere in terms of right, who's doing what, then we can set up that mini meeting, like do it that way around. Try the chat first, like in the next week and then see how it goes. And then the end of the week, we sort of, you know, basically at the end of the week of us doing this chat, we sit down hypothetically and go, [01:19:38.217 01:19:39.017] Giuseppe (Yosyp): fine to me [01:19:38.727 01:19:44.387] Jordan (Senft-Research): right. Has this worked? If not, mini meeting. You do this, you do this, you do this, you do this. [01:19:42.159 01:19:46.839] marcuspollio: yeah yeah i think it's a good step to help these [01:19:44.427 01:19:45.227] Jordan (Senft-Research): Job done. [01:19:46.839 01:19:50.539] marcuspollio: guidelines and onboarding so yeah sweet [01:19:47.667 01:19:48.467] Nzndns: Sounds great! [01:19:55.503 01:19:59.943] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. As someone who had to spend half their day today writing the document [01:19:59.567 01:20:06.147] Giuseppe (Yosyp): understandable uh so again when will [01:19:59.943 01:20:04.883] Jordan (Senft-Research): process, writing document process for my work, I'm very much [01:20:03.179 01:20:04.399] marcuspollio: okay [01:20:04.883 01:20:06.703] Jordan (Senft-Research): in the mood for this sort of work. [01:20:06.147 01:20:22.997] Giuseppe (Yosyp): the chat be up and how do we give whoever builds the chat, our Telegram contact information. That's what's stopping us. Because if we leave right now without anyone, great. [01:20:30.142 01:20:30.942] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:20:31.353 01:20:45.033] Nzndns: So my recommendation there is that Marcus and Max try to exchange numbers or email or whatever, and then Max can try to help us out with connecting over Discord. [01:20:42.579 01:20:44.839] marcuspollio: yeah [01:20:45.794 01:20:51.954] Jordan (Senft-Research): All in favor of calling this the M &M converter? Max to Marcus. Max to Marcus. [01:20:53.231 01:20:58.951] Max: Yeah. Can you guys just put all your contacts for a telegram here in the chat and then I will set up a group chat. [01:20:59.008 01:21:01.008] Jordan (Senft-Research): Brave of you to assume I have a Telegram. [01:21:01.447 01:21:03.707] Nzndns: I will send you a message on Discord later. [01:21:03.657 01:21:06.557] Giuseppe (Yosyp): But while I have Jordan on Facebook, [01:21:04.451 01:21:07.231] Max: I have your telegram, but the other guys. [01:21:04.888 01:21:05.688] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, [01:21:06.717 01:21:09.557] Nzndns: All right. You can add me. Sounds [01:21:09.138 01:21:16.368] Jordan (Senft-Research): I don't actually have a Telegram account yet. I'm going to do it. I'm happy to sign it up. I'm happy to sign it up. [01:21:17.187 01:21:19.147] Giuseppe (Yosyp): so 30 [01:21:17.988 01:21:22.788] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah, I'll give it to Ben or Giuseppe. Yeah, I'll get it sorted tomorrow. [01:21:23.957 01:21:24.757] Nzndns: great. [01:21:26.358 01:21:30.498] Jordan (Senft-Research): There is one more thing, by the way. There's no other big topics. [01:21:30.377 01:21:32.717] Giuseppe (Yosyp): seconds to write as long as they're not 31. [01:21:34.058 01:22:33.188] Jordan (Senft-Research): If anyone would be willing to humor me for an extra 30 seconds. oh god no one time me for the love of god please uh but no so something i've noted and this is very holistic there's not really an actionable to it yet there's something i think we should have in the back of our heads the website refactor was done to solve a problem and i think considering what a website is fundamentally and it goes back to i think it was fusion who mentioned it earlier um in a slightly more polite way when one builds something to fit something you lose the vision of what you want it to be in terms of its actual what do you want to what do you want it to be in its own right and in turn as we're building this sort of like website guide keep in mind that this isn't just to solve a problem it's part of it and it's the reason it started but if we keep seeing this website as it [01:22:30.339 01:22:31.999] marcuspollio: yeah [01:22:33.188 01:22:42.618] Jordan (Senft-Research): is to solve a problem it will never get an identity of its own Like, so just as a, I think that's like a nice positive note I wanted to add to the meeting. [01:22:41.267 01:22:42.067] Giuseppe (Yosyp): We [01:22:43.003 01:22:45.403] Nzndns: Sounds great. I gotta go. Later. [01:22:45.379 01:22:50.289] marcuspollio: i guess it's good uh you can put it as an abstract [01:22:46.863 01:22:47.663] Nzndns: Bye. [01:22:50.289 01:22:51.449] marcuspollio: for the the guidelines [01:22:50.758 01:22:52.738] Jordan (Senft-Research): Never change. Yeah. [01:22:51.959 01:22:59.089] marcuspollio: this one sounds good yeah cool yeah [01:22:58.918 01:23:02.758] Jordan (Senft-Research): I like that. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. It could be actually nice. It's like a little abstract headline for it. [01:23:02.048 01:23:12.528] Reqrefusion: of course, our face should be interesting. Not all the things are readable. [01:23:14.998 01:23:43.428] Jordan (Senft-Research): Oh no. Yeah. I, I, I bet, I bet you any money. Like, you know, as people are starting to drop off, like I'm just going to say now we will, I'm not going to call it an argument. That's not, that's not the right word for it, but there will be very healthy debate at the next meeting. I feel like, cause there will be ideas that clash. There will be sort of principles that don't quite work, but I think we're all mature people. And as long as we just accept that now, it will, we'll come out with something productive at the end that who knows, maybe it will be different to any of our [01:23:40.659 01:23:45.589] marcuspollio: but i think it's really necessary i mean it has [01:23:43.428 01:23:46.758] Jordan (Senft-Research): visions. Like it could be in the next meeting, you know, like. [01:23:45.589 01:23:54.489] marcuspollio: been lacking i've been mostly the one um pushing for this thing and so yeah it [01:23:51.278 01:23:52.078] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:23:54.489 01:23:59.309] marcuspollio: needs more involvement and more ids getting to yeah [01:24:00.567 01:24:05.327] Giuseppe (Yosyp): also speak each one of us a different language, so there's also a small [01:24:02.798 01:24:04.818] Jordan (Senft-Research): Well, this is it. And this goes back to that. [01:24:05.327 01:24:07.147] Giuseppe (Yosyp): language barrier that... [01:24:05.918 01:24:06.718] Jordan (Senft-Research): Hold on. [01:24:07.597 01:24:13.197] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Might alter our own and native opinions. So Oh [01:24:15.608 01:24:25.118] Jordan (Senft-Research): This is true. Like, there is some in it. Like, for example, I speak [01:24:22.517 01:24:25.817] Giuseppe (Yosyp): You speak water water. [01:24:25.118 01:24:30.058] Jordan (Senft-Research): fluent idiot. Like, you know, but... No, no. I [01:24:28.837 01:24:36.257] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah You're not one of them [01:24:30.058 01:24:36.898] Jordan (Senft-Research): do understand what you're saying there. Bot low water. [01:24:36.257 01:24:41.117] Giuseppe (Yosyp): very very strong one of them but We're all mature people [01:24:38.218 01:24:39.998] Jordan (Senft-Research): Brand new website. [01:24:41.117 01:24:43.227] Giuseppe (Yosyp): I think I agree [01:24:47.638 01:25:05.818] Jordan (Senft-Research): No. Well, this is it. This is it. We can disagree as long as we're all humble enough to admit that... Whatever comes out of the next meeting, once we've done all of our own contributions and our own ideas, it will probably look nothing like anyone's exact [01:25:02.439 01:25:03.439] marcuspollio: yeah [01:25:05.818 01:25:22.708] Jordan (Senft-Research): design. It will be the best of everything. And I think that's the best way to go about it. I just thought putting that positive note on it, because there were a few moments as we were discussing the day where it's like, that's quite blunt language being [01:25:21.939 01:25:26.679] marcuspollio: i'm sure so that's the good note to to start the meeting [01:25:22.708 01:25:26.638] Jordan (Senft-Research): used there. So, yeah, I thought putting that positive spin on the end would be quite nice. [01:25:26.679 01:25:36.959] marcuspollio: so maybe we should call it they are publish the notes um and then we'll see each other soon [01:25:34.527 01:25:37.747] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Marcus are you are you Italian? [01:25:35.498 01:25:36.298] Jordan (Senft-Research): Yeah. [01:25:36.959 01:25:38.679] marcuspollio: right who [01:25:39.248 01:25:40.048] Jordan (Senft-Research): From there. [01:25:40.757 01:25:42.297] Giuseppe (Yosyp): You are you Italian? [01:25:42.639 01:25:43.759] marcuspollio: yeah [01:25:43.728 01:25:45.848] Jordan (Senft-Research): See you soon, Jürgen. I [01:25:45.227 01:25:48.227] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Oh, okay. I'm Italian first. [01:25:45.779 01:25:52.399] marcuspollio: i'm just speaking italian too all right yeah [01:25:57.107 01:25:57.907] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Well, [01:25:58.418 01:26:00.738] Jordan (Senft-Research): can say with certainty that I am not Italian. [01:26:01.948 01:26:03.568] Max: Yeah, we shouldn't switch languages. [01:26:03.337 01:26:07.617] Giuseppe (Yosyp): let's stick to the English framework, okay? That works fine. [01:26:05.528 01:26:12.128] Jordan (Senft-Research): I know buongiorno, arrivederci, and yeah, [01:26:11.207 01:26:12.387] Giuseppe (Yosyp): No, please no. [01:26:12.288 01:26:27.138] Jordan (Senft-Research): that's about it. The English framework. Right, okay, new framework for the website, guys. We're going to use the English framework to build the new site. You know, it's just going to be loads of bottles of water. [01:26:28.657 01:26:32.357] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah, it's actually been very good. Thank you for all. [01:26:29.428 01:26:35.988] Jordan (Senft-Research): But, no. No, this is a good meeting. It's good chatting with you guys, like, a little bit more. So, [01:26:34.667 01:26:37.107] Giuseppe (Yosyp): See you on the Telegram chat then. [01:26:37.088 01:26:41.388] Jordan (Senft-Research): yeah. Yeah, thanks for all guys for this. [01:26:41.039 01:26:42.459] marcuspollio: see you soon have a good one [01:26:47.048 01:26:51.728] Jordan (Senft-Research): See you in the Telegram chat. I'll get myself signed up. If I have to pay money, though, you're [01:26:49.427 01:26:52.987] Giuseppe (Yosyp): Yeah, I'm looking for it. Let's upright live. Yeah. [01:26:51.728 01:27:03.408] Jordan (Senft-Research): paying me. No, I'm joking. Have a good evening. Where's the leave button in here? Oh, God, why is it in the top right corner? Oh my god. Who made this?